O.K. Mladene, ja ti najiskrenije zelim svu srecu i uspeh ukoliko sa nekim budes primenjivao takvu vrstu treninga...

Nemam volje uopste da opet citam te ogromne paste-ovane tekstove jer sam dosao sa treninga od 4+ h...

I ja se slazem da je conconi sranje, opet me nisi dobro razumeo...

Uglavnom ne zelim vise uopste da "raspravljamo" , rekli smo sta smo imali i to je to... Nadam se da se slazes? Stvarno ovo ne vodi nigde...

Svako ko trci, vozi i sl. neka sam prosudi da li mu je potreban pulsmetar ili nije, ali ja bih rekao da ce zakljuciti da mu ne treba samo onaj koji je strogo konzervativan i zivi u srednjem veku...

DHEA,

Moguće objašnjenje jeste da je taj MMA borac bio anxiozan PRE vaĂ°enja krvi, što mu je povećalo nivo laktata, mada može da bude i do zagrevanja, ali je nakon što se našao na svom terenu, opustio se i nivo laktata je pao.... 5mmol/l u mirovanju je poprilično i mislim da je definitivno posredi nek iartefakt prilikom merenja. To je još jedan primer kako kada neko 'ne vidi šumu od drveća' (koristeći HR, bLA i ostale proste mere) ostane zbunjen i sam sebi pravi paradoxe....

Отприлике су и они тако закључили... јесте 5 ммол/л добра вредност, али ми се чини да није мерена баш у мировању... без обзира што је имао времена да се одмори, рачунај да су неколико сати демонстрирали своју снагу на разноразним објектима... вероватно ће опет пустити ту емисију, гладаћу да је снимим, поставм па, ако за то буде потребе, разглабамо пар дана! 

Još malo o laktatima:
http://www.powerrunning.com/Exercise%20Physiology/Do%20High%20Lactate%20Concentrations%20Actualy%20Improve%20Performance.htm
http://www.powerrunning.com/Exercise%20Physiology/There%20is%20NO%20Lactate%20Threshold.htm

O izvini, da ne ispadne da kažem da je Conconi sranje bez dokaza. Procitaj sažetke

Smith CG, Jones AM. The relationship between critical velocity, maximal lactate steady-state velocity and lactate turnpoint velocity in runners. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Jul;85(1-2):19-26.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513315?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

In cycle exercise, it has been suggested that critical power, maximal lactate steady state, and lactate turnpoint all demarcate the transition between the heavy exercise domain (in which blood lactate is elevated above resting values but remains stable over time) and the very heavy exercise domain (in which blood lactate increases continuously throughout constant-intensity exercise). The purpose of the present study was to assess the level of agreement between critical velocity (CV), maximal lactate steady-state velocity (MLSSV), and lactate turnpoint velocity (LTPV) during treadmill running. Eight male subjects [mean (SD) age 28 (5) years, body mass 71.2 (8.0) kg, maximum oxygen uptake 54.9 (3.2) ml.kg(-1).min(-1)) performed an incremental treadmill test for the determination of LTPV (defined as a sudden and sustained increase in blood lactate concentration ([La]) at approximately equals 2.0-5.0 mM). The subjects returned to the laboratory on eight or nine occasions for the determination of CV and MLSSV. The CV was determined from four treadmill runs at velocities that were chosen to result in exhaustion within 2-12 min. The MLSSV was determined from four or five treadmill runs of up to 30 min duration and defined as the highest velocity at which blood [La] increased by no more than 1.0 mM after between 10 and 30 min of exercise. Analysis of variance revealed no significant differences between [mean (SD)] CV [14.4 (1.1) km.h(-1)], MLSSV [13.8 (1.1) km.h(-1)] and LTPV [13.7 (0.6) km.h(-1)]. However, the bias +/-95% limits of agreement for comparisons between CV and MLSSV [0.6 (2.2) km.h(-1)], CV and LTPV [0.7 (2.7) km.h(-1)], and MLSSV and LTPV [0.1 (1. km.h(-1)] suggest that the extent of disagreement is too great to allow one variable to be estimated accurately from another in individual subjects. Direct determination of MLSSV is necessary if precision is required in experimental studies.
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Jones AM, Doust JH. Lack of reliability in Conconi's heart rate deflection point. Int J Sports Med. 1995 Nov;16(:541-4.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8776209?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Conconi et al. (1982) reported the development of noninvasive field test for anaerobic threshold (AT) based upon an observed deviation from the linear heart rate (HR)--running velocity (RV) relationship at high RV (HRdev). While the validity of the Conconi test has been debated (Heck and Hollmann 1992; Tokmakidis and Leger 1992), the reliability of the Conconi test has never been independently assessed in athletes performing the protocol outlined by Conconi. This study evaluated the reliability of the Conconi test in 15 well-trained male distance runners (22.5 +/- 3.3 yrs, 67.7 +/- 4.8 kg, VO2 peak 66.4 +/- 4.8 ml.kg-1.min-1) who performed a treadmill simulation of the Conconi test protocol twice within a 4-8 day period. The results were as follows: 6 subjects demonstrated HRdev in both Conconi tests, 5 subjects demonstrated HRdev in only one test, and in 4 subjects HRdev could not be discerned in either test. It was concluded that failure to determine a reproducible HRdev by subjective assessment in 9 of 15 subjects makes the Conconi test unsuitable for reliable evaluation of AT.
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Bodner ME, Rhodes EC. A review of the concept of the heart rate deflection point. Sports Med. 2000 Jul;30(1):31-46.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10907756?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

The heart rate deflection point (HRDP) is a downward or upward change from the linear HR-work relationship evinced during progressive incremental exercise testing. The HRDP is reported to be coincident with the anaerobic threshold. In 1982, Conconi and colleagues suggested that this phenomenon could be used as a noninvasive method to assess the anaerobic threshold. These researchers developed a field test to assess the HRDP, which has become popularised as the 'Conconi test'. Concepts used to define and assess the anaerobic threshold as well as methodological procedures used to determine the HRDP are diverse in the literature and have contributed to controversy surrounding the HRDP concept. Although the HRDP may be assessed in either field or laboratory settings, the degree of HR deflection is highly dependent upon the type of protocol used. The validity of HRDP to assess the anaerobic threshold is uncertain, although a high degree of relationship exists between HRDP and the second lactate turnpoint. The HRDP appears to be reliable when a positive identification is made; however, not all studies report 100% reproducibility. Although the physiological mechanisms explaining the HRDP are unresolved, a relationship exists between the degree and direction of HRDP and left ventricular function. The HRDP has potential to be used for training regulation purposes. Clinically, it may be incorporated to set exercise intensity parameters for cardiac rehabilitation.
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Jones AM, Doust JH. The Conconi test in not valid for estimation of the lactate turnpoint in runners. J Sports Sci. 1997 Aug;15(4):385-94.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9293415?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Conconi et al. (1982) reported that an observed deviation from linearity in the heart rate-running velocity relationship determined during a field test in runners coincided with the 'lactate threshold'. The aim of this study was to assess the validity of the original Conconi test using conventional incremental and constant-load laboratory protocols. Fourteen trained male distance runners (mean +/-s: age 22.6 +/- 3.4 years; body mass 67.6 +/- 4.8 kg; peak VO2 66.3 +/- 4.7 ml kg-1 min-1) performed a standard multi-stage test for determination of lactate turnpoint and a Conconi test on a motorized treadmill. A deviation from linearity in heart rate was observed in nine subjects. Significant differences were found to exist between running velocity at the lactate turnpoint (4.39 +/- 0.20 m s-1) and at deviation from linear heart rate (5.08 +/- 0.25 m s-1) (P < 0.01), and between heart rate at the lactate turnpoint (172 +/- 10 beats min-1) and at deviation from linearity (186 +/- 9 beats min-1) (P < 0.01). When deviation of heart rate from linearity was evident, it occurred at a systematically higher intensity than the lactate turnpoint and at approximately 95% of maximum heart rate. These results were confirmed by the physiological responses of seven subjects, who performed two constant-velocity treadmill runs at 0.14 m s-1 below the running velocity at the lactate turnpoint and that at which the heart rate deviated from linearity. For the lactate turnpoint trial, the prescribed 30 min exercise period was completed by all runners (terminal blood lactate concentration of 2.4 +/- 0.5 mM), while the duration attained in the trial for which heart rate deviated from linearity was 15.9 +/- 6.7 min (terminal blood lactate concentration of 8.1 +/- 1.8 mM). We concluded that the Conconi test is invalid for the non-invasive determination of the lactate turnpoint and that the deviation of heart rate from linearity represents the start of the plateau at maximal heart rate, the expression of which is dependent upon the specifics of the Conconi test protocol.

Evo ti pogledaj ovo (kada sam radio pre 2 godine conconi test):

SLIKA 1

SLIKA 2

SLIKA 3

- tacnost izracunavanja indireknto = 0.992

Naravno, uvek sam za varijantu za direktno izracunavanje pomocu odnosta    arterijski kiseonik - venski  (t.j. sa maskom koja meri protok)...

I sto kazes "nemoj se toliko vezati za brojke (a ti mi stalno spominjes tabele!!!)" - nigde nisam spomenuo ni da striktno treba, jer primer: kada sam radio test i dobio rezultat VO2 max, trener je samo pogledao rezultate i odmah rekao da to nije dobro, da je VO2 max dosta veci, jer nije u potpunosti dobro izveden test, a to je ono sto ti pricam, ako ti znas da rukujes sa tim, da tumacis, citas sve te podatke, onda nemozes imati problema jer odmah uvidis ukoliko je doslo do neke greske...

Ono što ja pričam jeste da trening treba biti baziran na IZVOĂDENJU a ne na pulsu! Conconi test jeste SRANJE, potraži pregledne radove koji ga kritikuju. Ukoliko hoces da dodjes do Laktatnog praga, napravi 30min time-trial i naći ćeš BRZINU laktatnog praga, a ako koristiš HR, možeš naći i puls.
Učeći sportiste da se oslanjaju na vlastiti osećaj napora, vremenom, potrebna ti je samo štoperica....

Mladene znaci svaki trening da radim na stazi sa stopericom i samo racunam brzine, na stotkama gledam prolaze pa malo usporim, pa na sledecoj stotki ubrzam pa... hehe i usput ubijem noge od stalnog trcanja na stazi...

Mislim da ne vredi siriti raspravu, samo vrtimo vola oko stola, nije mi ni cilj da te sad bezgranicno ubedjujem da gresis, voleo bih kada bi sve to probao u praksi umesto da "teoretises"...
Uporno mi navodis primere koji se desavaju u vrlo retkim slucajevima koji su poznati, tako da ne mozes doci do greske...
I ako je puls shit, zasto je najpreciznija metoda indirektnog odredjivanja VO2 max-a (kad mi vec stalno dovodis VO2 max u vezu sa pulsom) upravo preko pulsa, pa to ti Polar ProTrainer 5 (softver koji dobijes sa Polar pulsmetrom) posle testa moze izracunati sa tacnoscu +- 0.1 %?

 

VO2max je sranje... ono što je vazan parametar jeste vVO2max2 ili brzina na VO2max-u, a za to ti ne trebaju nikakvi skupi instrumenti. Ako imaš dvojicu sportista sa istim VO2max, npr 60ml/kg/min, a jedan je bolji na 5k ili 10k koji K će ti VO2max? Ono u čemu se oni razlikuju jese ekonomičnost trčanja. vVO2max jeste parametar koji UJEDINJUJE sve fiziološke parametre.
Veronica Billat je napravila test koji je u visokoj korelaciji sa vVO2max na traci.

Trčiš 6min što brže možeš. Podeliš distancu sa 6min i dobiješ brzinu vVO2max, koju kasnije možeš da koristiš pri planiranju intervala za razvoj aerobne snage.

Npr. 10x30sec @ vVO2max w/30sec @50% vVO2max

Možeš da praviš progresiju, npr 5reps, 7 reps, 10 reps... ili da koristis 1min/1min, 15/15, 2min/2min i sl...  Nakon 4-6 nedelja, ponoviš 6min test i nadjes novu brzinu... Jesam li negde koristio puls? Nisam! Trening je strogo individualizovan, bez prokletog pulsa!

Evo ti pogledaj ovo (kada sam radio pre 2 godine conconi test):

SLIKA 1

SLIKA 2

SLIKA 3

- tacnost izracunavanja indireknto = 0.992

Naravno, uvek sam za varijantu za direktno izracunavanje pomocu odnosta    arterijski kiseonik - venski  (t.j. sa maskom koja meri protok)...

I sto kazes "nemoj se toliko vezati za brojke (a ti mi stalno spominjes tabele!!!)" - nigde nisam spomenuo ni da striktno treba, jer primer: kada sam radio test i dobio rezultat VO2 max, trener je samo pogledao rezultate i odmah rekao da to nije dobro, da je VO2 max dosta veci, jer nije u potpunosti dobro izveden test, a to je ono sto ti pricam, ako ti znas da rukujes sa tim, da tumacis, citas sve te podatke, onda nemozes imati problema jer odmah uvidis ukoliko je doslo do neke greske...

Mladene znaci svaki trening da radim na stazi sa stopericom i samo racunam brzine, na stotkama gledam prolaze pa malo usporim, pa na sledecoj stotki ubrzam pa... hehe i usput ubijem noge od stalnog trcanja na stazi...

Mislim da ne vredi siriti raspravu, samo vrtimo vola oko stola, nije mi ni cilj da te sad bezgranicno ubedjujem da gresis, voleo bih kada bi sve to probao u praksi umesto da "teoretises"...
Uporno mi navodis primere koji se desavaju u vrlo retkim slucajevima koji su poznati, tako da ne mozes doci do greske...
I ako je puls shit, zasto je najpreciznija metoda indirektnog odredjivanja VO2 max-a (kad mi vec stalno dovodis VO2 max u vezu sa pulsom) upravo preko pulsa, pa to ti Polar ProTrainer 5 (softver koji dobijes sa Polar pulsmetrom) posle testa moze izracunati sa tacnoscu +- 0.1 %?

 

DHEA,

Moguće objašnjenje jeste da je taj MMA borac bio anxiozan PRE vaĂ°enja krvi, što mu je povećalo nivo laktata, mada može da bude i do zagrevanja, ali je nakon što se našao na svom terenu, opustio se i nivo laktata je pao.... 5mmol/l u mirovanju je poprilično i mislim da je definitivno posredi nek iartefakt prilikom merenja. To je još jedan primer kako kada neko 'ne vidi šumu od drveća' (koristeći HR, bLA i ostale proste mere) ostane zbunjen i sam sebi pravi paradoxe....

Ljudi jesu i pre izmisljanja pulsmetara postizali vrhunske rezultate, ali uporedi ih sa sadasnjim Cheesy
I zapao si u kontradikciju, kako su onda merili brzine, kad pulsmetri postoje 20 godina, a brzinomeri (pravi - napredniji) realno 5 god?

ŠTOPERICOM! Imaš krug od 400m, ukoliko znaš matematiku, podeliš 400 sa vremenom po krugu i dobiješ pace

Ukoliko znaš da koristis PubMed ili Medline, naĂ°i sledeći review paper:

Juul Achten and Asker E. Jeukendrup. Heart Rate Monitoring. Applications and Limitations. Sports Med 2003; 33 (7): 517-538

Abstract
Over the last 20 years, heart rate monitors (HRMs) have become a widely used
training aid for a variety of sports. The development of new HRMs has also
evolved rapidly during the last two decades. In addition to heart rate (HR)
responses to exercise, research has recently focused more on heart rate variability
(HRV). Increased HRV has been associated with lower mortality rate and is
affected by both age and sex. During graded exercise, the majority of studies show
that HRV decreases progressively up to moderate intensities, after which it
stabilises. There is abundant evidence from cross-sectional studies that trained
individuals have higher HRV than untrained individuals. The results from longitudinal
studies are equivocal, with some showing increased HRV after training but
an equal number of studies showing no differences. The duration of the training
programmes might be one of the factors responsible for the versatility of the
results.
HRMs are mainly used to determine the exercise intensity of a training session
or race. Compared with other indications of exercise intensity, HR is easy to
monitor, is relatively cheap and can be used in most situations. In addition, HR
and HRV could potentially play a role in the prevention and detection of
overtraining. The effects of overreaching on submaximal HR are controversial,
with some studies showing decreased rates and others no difference. Maximal HR
appears to be decreased in almost all â€overreaching’ studies. So far, only few
studies have investigated HRV changes after a period of intensified training and
no firm conclusions can be drawn from these results.
The relationship between HR and oxygen uptake (VĂż O2) has been used to
predict maximal oxygen uptake (VĂż O2max). This method relies upon several
assumptions and it has been shown that the results can deviate up to 20% from the
true value. The HR-VĂż O2 relationship is also used to estimate energy expenditure
during field conditions. There appears to be general consensus that this method
provides a satisfactory estimate of energy expenditure on a group level, but is not
very accurate for individual estimations.
The relationship between HR and other parameters used to predict and monitor
an individual’s training status can be influenced by numerous factors. There
appears to be a small day-to-day variability in HR and a steady increase during
exercise has been observed in most studies. Furthermore, factors such as dehydration
and ambient temperature can have a profound effect on the HR-VĂż O2 relationship.
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Zaključak, ja sam više 'Velocity Oriented'...

Mladene mogu ti i ja sad jedno 300 hiljada recenica ovde paste-ovati koje stoje iza mojish stavova.

neiscrpnost i neprofesionalnost prethodno postovanog clanaka je ociglena, jer se bazira na obicnom razgovoru i caskanju par ljudi, gde nema dokazanih cinjenica i gde su zanemarene neke jako bitne cinjenice, ja bih protumacio namerno, da bi se vestacki doslo do nekih zakljucaka.
To je sve moguce, ali te situacije nastaju pod odredjenim uzrocima, koji se tacno znaju. I sasvim je normalno to da puls skoci nekad pred trening/trku zbog uzbudjenosti, mislim to svako zna, "srce pocne jako da mi lupa" narod bi rekao... i onda moze da ispadne da kasnije pri naporu bude i malo manji ali to je ekstrem i vrlo retko se desava, a i to je privremeno, taje vrlo kratak period, jer ne moze adrenalin da vam se luci 5 minuta, logicno...
I da objasnim taj konkretan primer "ne mogu nikako do veceg pulsa ma koliko jako plivala, bla, bla". U plivanju je malo drugacija stvar. Telo je u vodoravnom polozaju tako da je potreban i mnogo manji pritisak da bi krv dospela u sve delove tela jer je celo telo u visini srca, stoga je i puls mnogo manji nego na trcanju pa i na bike-u. Znaci pri maximalnim naporima plivanja i trcanja nije isti bpm, to i laici znaju, a tvoj Dr se pravi da nezna.
A kao sto si i sam rekao, ni ja ne bih obracao previse paznje na pulsmetar za krace staze (za srednje svakako bi), a to plivanje 200 metara, svakako nije merodavno... Stoga su ti primeri iz teksa zaista niskoumni.

A i na dosta mesta u tekstovima, cije si linkove pominjeo, nasao sam da se Dr koristi pulsmetrom...

Uporno mi govoris o tome kako se ja u potpunosti oslanjam na pulsmetar a vise puta sam napomenuo da to nije i ne treba da bude tako. Samo pokusavam da ti docaram da nikako ne mogu biti losi, ni u kakvom slucaju, ako znas da se vladas sa njima, ne mogu te dovesti u corsokak.

I eto, npr taj program sto si napisao, stoji to sve, ali opet to je samo za onaj osnovni napredak. svaki dalji napredak bi iziskivao konkretne promene u takvom treningu koji eksplicitno variraju od takmicara do takmicara, to pokusavam da objasnim u vezi tih "stvari po default-u"...

Ljudi jesu i pre izmisljanja pulsmetara postizali vrhunske rezultate, ali uporedi ih sa sadasnjim
I zapao si u kontradikciju, kako su onda merili brzine, kad pulsmetri postoje 20 godina, a brzinomeri (pravi - napredniji) realno 5 god?

Naravno, ukoliko uspem voleo bih da ih procitam, ne bojim se ja citanja, pa i iz dobrih i losih knjiga se stice pravo znanje, tako da iako znam da sam protiv mnogih stvari u njima, voleo bih da procitam razmisljanja...

...A ja bih tebi preporucio knjigu mog trenera , "Teorija i metodika sportskog treninga" - Dr Franja Fratric (jako velika i opsirna knjiga)

Dhea: znaci nesto od ono dvoje sto sam ti naveo je tacno, slozices se da je nemoguce da taj covek srusi cele dosadasnje principe ljudske fiziologije
To je ista ona stvar: npr izmere mi laktate posle trke 15 mmol/L, i ukoliko sedim narednih par minuta izmericemi mi 12 mmol/L, a ukoliko rastrcim izmerice mi 10 mmol/L... tako da to je ta stvar, jer ti fizickim pokretima ruku, nogu, svejedno, mozes razbiti mlecnu kiselinu t.j. smanjiti vrednost laktata jer pokretima kojima ne stvaras naknadno kiseline, ti povecavas protok i samim tim se "razbija" kiselina...

Видиш то ми није пало напамет... Мада, ако су већ тамо били ти неки спортски научници/истраживачи, не верујем да су били толико тупави да му мере ниво одмах након неке демонстрације... или јесу, јбг, сад се не сећам... Не верујем да је грешка у мерењу, све је одрађено како треба - крв вађена из средњег прста, лепо натопљен мерач,...

Детаљнији опис ситуације - тестирани спортиста је на леђима, "противник" је преко њега и обавијен... наравно, да не би било фолирање, излепили су их са силним мерачима... оно што се дешавало у току тог минута "борбе" - тестирани спортиста је наизменичним контракцијама горњих и доњих екстремитета ( скала увелико залазила у црвену зону) успео да задржи противника тј. овај није успео да се извуче из задате ситуације.

Оно што ми није јасно - без обзира на, скоро нормалне вредности, не могу да схватим да се некоме услед повећане статичке контракције, смањи ниво лактата!

April 10, 2008

The Flutter Over Heart Rate
By GINA KOLATA

I have a confession to make. I get so competitive about heart rates when I am at the gym that my husband will not tell me his.

“How was your workout?” I’ll ask when we get off of Spinning bikes or elliptical cross-trainers. He’ll reply that it was good, he worked at “80 percent.” But 80 percent of what? I want to know what he thinks his maximum is. But he won’t say.

Of course, I know it’s ridiculous to think that a higher maximum heart rate means that I’m a better athlete than my husband. He may have a slower heart rate, but he can beat me in cycling any day. And, after all, the goal in exercise is to get more blood to your muscles. The heart does that by beating faster and by pumping more blood with each beat. If your heart is more powerful, it does not have to beat as fast. “There is no association between maximum heart rate and exercise performance,” said Hirofumi Tanaka, the director of the Cardiovascular Aging Research Laboratory and an exercise physiologist at the University of Texas in Austin.

In fact, Dr. Tanaka said, when people start exercising regularly their maximum heart rate often goes down.

And I know that the whole heart-rate monitoring issue is contentious. Many athletes strap on those slender black bands around the chests. Then they try to keep their rate at some percentage of their maximum, 70 percent, say, or 80 percent, depending on their goals for the workout.

For some activities, like using an elliptical cross-trainer or riding most Spinning bikes at the gym, it can be difficult to gauge your effort without a heart-rate monitor. You can’t figure out speed or distance the way you can if you are swimming in a pool or running or cycling outside. Maybe it’s all that sweating, but it always feels as if you’re working hard even when your heart rate tells you that you could do a lot more.

But experts disagree on whether heart-rate monitoring makes sense.

Exercise physiologists tend to favor it. “You need to keep track of exercise intensity” in order to meet performance goals or to improve, Dr. Tanaka said. He does not rely on standard formulas for finding maximum heart rate, though, because they vary so much from person to person. Instead, he advises that people find their maximum “in a field setting.” He suggests going to a track and gradually increasing your speed until your heart rate stops climbing.

Some coaches, like the one who trains Dr. Richard Friedman, 51, a masters swimmer in New York, set their own heart-rate goals for athletes. And, that, said Dr. Friedman, a psychiatrist at Cornell, is a problem. Even though he is one of the fastest on his team, his coach insists that he should hit a heart rate of 150 when he does, say, repeats of 50 meters freestyle in 60 seconds.

“I can never get my heart rate up to his target no matter how hard or fast I swim,” Dr. Friedman said.

Others, like Kevin Hanson, coach to Brian Sell, who just made the United States Olympic men’s marathon team, advise against monitoring your heart rate.

The classic formula for determining your maximum rate, 220 minus your age, is notoriously inaccurate, he said. And glancing at your heart-rate monitor all the time can hinder your training, he cautioned.

“It ends up playing mind games with you,” Mr. Hanson said. “Let’s say you are out for a 10-mile run and you don’t feel tired. Then you look at your heart rate,” and it is so high you decide you must have overdone it. Suddenly, he said, you feel tired and slow down.

Everyone’s maximum heart rate declines, slowly and steadily, with the passing years. So if your heart rate is higher than expected, doesn’t that mean you are exercising like a younger person?

It depends. On the one hand are athletes like Lance Armstrong, known for having an unusually high maximum heart rate. And that, said Edward F. Coyle, an exercise physiologist who has studied Mr. Armstrong, was to his advantage because his heart also was extremely efficient. A high maximum heart rate, helps, “all other things being equal,” Dr. Coyle said. The problem, he noted, is that there are so many other factors in performance that rarely are all other things equal.

So if Dr. Friedman could get his heart rate to 150, wouldn’t he be faster?

Not necessarily. And the story of Rebecca Soni, a swimmer at the University of Southern California, helps explain why. Ms. Soni, who has the second fastest time for an American woman in the 200-meter breast stroke, had an irregular heart beat. At times when she exercised her heart would beat up to an astonishing 400 times a minute.

Instead of making her swim faster, though, her fast-beating heart made her go limp. In 2006, in order to continue competing, she underwent a procedure to destroy heart tissue that was causing her heart to beat so fast.

This suggests two things. First, a faster heart isn’t necessarily better. And, second, hearts can beat much faster than they ever actually beat when most of us exercise. Something slows our hearts down, probably for the good of our performance or survival.

A heart beating at its maximum possible rate may be inefficient, Dr. Tanaka explained. As the heart beats more quickly, there comes a point when there is too little time between beats for it to fill with blood. “For exercise capacity, heart rate is not the issue,” said William Haskell, an exercise physiologist at Stanford University. “The heart has got to be an efficient pump.”

It turns out that the heart rate is controlled by three factors. First is the heart’s own intrinsic rate, how fast it would beat if you cut all its nerves and removed it from the body. The heart’s own internal pacemaker would make it beat roughly 40 to 60 beats per second more slowly than its maximum rate. And, Dr. Tanaka said, the heart’s intrinsic rate declines with age parallel to the maximum heart rate’s decline with age. No one knows why.

The other factors controlling heart rate are the sympathetic nerves, which speed it up, and those that slow it down, the parasympathetic nerves.

When you start to exercise, said Patrick O’Connor, an exercise physiologist at the University of Georgia, the first thing that happens is that the parasympathetic nerves become less active. That makes your heart beat faster. As the intensity of your effort increases, the sympathetic nerves come into play, speeding the heart still more.

But there are complications. Anxiety, for example.

“We had people on treadmills who were getting ready to start,” Dr. O’Connor said. “Their heart rates were 160 or 170.” They weren’t exercising, just nervous, he explained. And when they started to run on the treadmill, their heart rates went down.

There’s a lesson here, of course, for runners who use heart-rate monitors during a race. Be careful about interpreting those numbers.

Then there are the differences among sports. Swimmers, for example, have lower heart rates when they swim than runners when they run. The reason, Dr. O’Connor explained, is that during running, your heart has to push blood against gravity to bring it to your head. During swimming, your heart does not have to exert that extra force.

Maybe Dr. Friedman should tell his coach.

As for my husband, he knows that my fixation on whose heart rate is higher is ridiculous. Still, I wish I knew what he thinks his maximum is and how he knows it.

DHEA,
Pretpostavljam da je vreme izmeĂ°u merenja bLA i statičke kontrakcije bilo pre-kratko te laktati nisu mogli da udju iz mišica u sistemsku cirkulaciju, ali zapto su bili manji... sigurno je neki artefakt kod merenja.

Ognjene,
Brzina ili power-output je glavni faktor koji dovodi do trenažnih efekata, a puls je način da se indirektno pronaĂ°e brzina, u tu svrhu se koristi inkrementalno testiranje i Conconi (koji je sranje). Ako imaš brzinu, puls ti ne treba. Kod dužeg trčanja, pogotovo koje nije na atleskoj stazi ili na stazi čiju dužinu neznaš, puls može da koristi.

Eto ti primeri za intervale za VO2max koje si pisao, te razmere koje si preporucio za intervale su stvarno smesene, zar stvarno mislis da je covekov organizam programiran da tacno u tim razmerama 2:1 ili 2:2 dobije neophodan oporavak

Kod VO2max intervala cilj je NE postići neophodan oporavak, intervali mogu biti 30-30 na vVO2max, 30-15 i sl. Način na koji praviš progresiju je nešto sasvim drugo.

pa ukoliko se vec radi trening po oporavku onda se gleda dok ti se puls npr. ne spusti na odredjenu granicu i onda kreces novi interval (a kao sto je logicno, pauzaca ce ti se onda povecavati)

Ko odreĂ°uje kad si oporavljen? 60% od pulsa, kad se smiri? Ko je došao do tog broja? To je opet individualno, mozda sam ja oporavljen kad se puls spusti za odreĂ°eni procenat ili broj, a ti nisi? Treba da se osloniš na vlastiti osećaj ne na puls, mada puls mozes da koristis i da vremenom provalis sta se sa njime desava.

Elem,
Moj stav je da su pulsmetri sranje (pogotovo na srednjim i kratkim prugama), a iza mog mišljenja stoji veći broj trenera. Na dužim prugama mogu imati nekakav značaj, čisto da si siguran da nisi previše pogrešio pace. Ima trenera koji koriste pulsmetar, ima ih koji ne koriste. Ja sam onaj koji ne koristi, već se oslanja na programiranje treninga putema pace-a i RPE-a.
Praktično, uzmimo primer 1500m koji trči 5:00. Cilj treninga je da tu distancu pretči za manje vremena, tj. da ima veću brzinu. Trenažne komponente koje on može da koristi su sledeće: (način njihovog organizovanja su posebna tema)

1. Trening snage
Cilj: maksimalna snaga, mišićna hipertrofija (ukoliko je potrebna), lokalna i globalna mišična izdržljivost, prevencija povreda
Sredstva: Čučnjevi, iskorak, RDLs, GHRs, Glute Brigde, Core work, upper body push & pull; DM complexes, circuit training...

2. Tehnički trening
Cilj: Tehnika trčanja, brzina, elastičnost, ekonomija trčanja
Sredstva: Eksplozivni skokovi, elastični skokovi, trening brzine (30-100m), uzbrdice (60-200m), Reps (intervali/split runs na i iznad "race pace" sa punim odmorom)

3. Intervali
Cilj: VO2max, tolerancija i produkcija bLA
Sredstva: Intervali na vVO2max (izračunati pomoću tabele-procenat race-pace-a ili na 98-100% HR), brzinski intervali (na i iznad race pace sa nepotpunim odmorom)

4. Threshold run
Cilj: Razvoj anaerobnog praga (otklanjanja bLA)
Sredstva: Tempo run (na odreĂ°enom pace-u -procenat of race-pace, ili koristeći HR), cruise intervals

5. Easy runs
Cilj: Oporavak

*** Naravno, ovo je hipotetički primer iz moje glave

Način na koji se pravi progresija je nešto o čemu se može raspravljati. Primećuješ da sam za neke komponente koristio HR a za neke nisam? Naravno, HR ima mesta u treninga, ali ja bih se pre svega oslanja na PACE! Što se tiče Jack Daniels-a, on je proglašen  "best running coach", i da sam na tvom mestu, nabavio bih knjigu jer je stvarno dobra. Jack daje načine kako da pogodiš cilj treninga prema osećaju (disanje, RPE i sl.), ali daje i naputke kako da koristiš pulsmetar.

Obojica smo bili isključivi u dosadašnjoj diskusiji. HR monitor ima ulogu u treninga, ali ne treba se previše oslanjati na njega. Race Pace je ono što želiš da popraviš. Ljudi su postizali odlične rezultate i pre pulsmetra i oslanjanje na neki gadget nije bash najpametnije. Ako te interesuje knjiga, mogu da ti nabavim kopiju, al moraces da je procitas )))

http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=35704&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=31537&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=30710&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=25898&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=13615&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=6893&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=7091&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors
http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=33893&highlight=Heart+Rate+Monitors

Pa voleo bih kada bi mi jos detaljnije opisao taj moment, nisam siguran da li sam dobro skontao...

Moguce je sasvim, jer pre svega to su male vrednosti (meni je, koliko se secam znao da dodje i do 14 mmol/l), tako da pretpostavljam da je pre nego sto ga je "obavio rukama i nogama" bio izlozen vecem fizickom naporu, u borbi ili sta vec, pa da mu je taj minut dosao kao "oporavak", jer mozda taj ispod njega nije bas svim silama pokusavao da se izvuce tako da mu nije iziskivao veci dodatni napor. I kao sto rekoh, to nisu velike vrednosti tako da u vrlo kratkom vremenskom intervalu moze da se redukuje, kao u tom slucaju sa 5 mmol/L na 4 mmol/L.

I jos jedan cinilac je moguc, pogresan rezultat! Nije retkost da se lose izmeri nivo laktata (bas mi je trener pricao kako se svega nagledao) jer ona mala cackalica-pravougaonik koja ide u laktat-analizator i na ciji vrh se stavlja krv mora potpuno da bude natopljena krvlju, t.j. da se vise puta "iscedi" krv iz prsta, i pozeljno je namazati prst ili uvo, svejedno, u zavistnosti od mesta iz kojeg se vadi krv, sa nekom krememom tipa ben-gay radi cirkulacije t.j. prokrvljenosti...